<?xml version="1.0" encoding="UTF-8"?><!-- generator="wordpress/2.1.3" -->
<rss version="2.0" 
	xmlns:content="http://purl.org/rss/1.0/modules/content/">
<channel>
	<title>Comments on: Sake</title>
	<link>http://www.thestubbes.com/wordpress/2006/12/17/sake/</link>
	<description>Taking a shot at some clarity.</description>
	<pubDate>Fri, 25 Jul 2008 08:03:21 +0000</pubDate>
	<generator>http://wordpress.org/?v=2.1.3</generator>

	<item>
		<title>By: Sarah</title>
		<link>http://www.thestubbes.com/wordpress/2006/12/17/sake/#comment-114</link>
		<author>Sarah</author>
		<pubDate>Sun, 17 Dec 2006 16:55:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://www.thestubbes.com/wordpress/2006/12/17/sake/#comment-114</guid>
					<description>Okay, so this has nothing to do with sake, except that it relates to the conversation that followed the sake.  I was going to post it under the Paul/Jesus discussion, but that was so old...

The following is from "Rich Christians in an Age of Hunger" by Ronald J. Sider.

In light of the parable of the good Samaritan and the clear teachings of Matthew 5:43-48, one is compelled to say that part of the teaching of Matthew 25 is that those who fail to aid the poor and oppressed ... are simply not the people of God.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Okay, so this has nothing to do with sake, except that it relates to the conversation that followed the sake.  I was going to post it under the Paul/Jesus discussion, but that was so old&#8230;</p>
<p>The following is from &#8220;Rich Christians in an Age of Hunger&#8221; by Ronald J. Sider.</p>
<p>In light of the parable of the good Samaritan and the clear teachings of Matthew 5:43-48, one is compelled to say that part of the teaching of Matthew 25 is that those who fail to aid the poor and oppressed &#8230; are simply not the people of God.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
				</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Sarah</title>
		<link>http://www.thestubbes.com/wordpress/2006/12/17/sake/#comment-115</link>
		<author>Sarah</author>
		<pubDate>Sun, 17 Dec 2006 17:08:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://www.thestubbes.com/wordpress/2006/12/17/sake/#comment-115</guid>
					<description>continued... 

We find the same message in 1 John 3:17-18 (NRSV): "How does God's love abide in anyone who has the world's goods and sees a brother or sister in need and yet refuses to help? Little children, let us love, not in word or speech, but in truth and action." (See also James 2:14-17.)

Again the words are plain.  What do they mean for rich Christians who demand increasing affluence while poor Christians in developing nations suffer from malnutrition, deformed bodies and brains, even starvation?  The text says that if we fail to aid the needy, we do not have God's love- no matter what we may say.  It is deeds that count, not pious phrases and saintly speeches.  Regardless of what we do or say at 11:00 AM on Sunday morning, rich Christians who neglect the poor are not the people of God.

But still the question persists.  Does continuing sin mean that professing believers are really not Christians?  Obviously not.  The Christian knowws that sinful selfishness continues to plague even the most saintly.  Salvation is by grace alone, not works of righteousness.  We are members of the people of God not because of our own righteousness but solely because of Christ's death for us.

That response is true- but inadequate by itself.  Matthew 25 and 1 John 3 surely mean more than that the people of God are disobedient (but still justified all the same) when they persistenly neglect the poor.  These verses pointedly assert that some people so disobey God that they are not his people at all in spite of their pious profession.  Neglect of the poor is one of the oft-repeated biblical signs of such disobedience.  Certainly none of us would claim that we fulfill Matthew 25 perfectly.  And we cling to the hope of forgiveness.  But there comes a point (and, thank God, he alonge knows where!) when neglect of the poor is not forgiven.  It is punished.  Eternally.  

Is it not possible that many rich "Christians" have reached that point?  North Americans and Europeans earn about seventy-five times as much as people in poor countries, but we give only a tiny fraction of our affluence to the church.  Most churches spend much of that pittance on themselves.  Can we claim we are obeying the biblical command to have a special concern for the poor?  Can we honestly say we are imitating God's concern for the poor and oppressed?  If the Bible is true, can we seriously hope to experience eternal love rather than eternal separation from the God of the poor?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>continued&#8230; </p>
<p>We find the same message in 1 John 3:17-18 (NRSV): &#8220;How does God&#8217;s love abide in anyone who has the world&#8217;s goods and sees a brother or sister in need and yet refuses to help? Little children, let us love, not in word or speech, but in truth and action.&#8221; (See also James 2:14-17.)</p>
<p>Again the words are plain.  What do they mean for rich Christians who demand increasing affluence while poor Christians in developing nations suffer from malnutrition, deformed bodies and brains, even starvation?  The text says that if we fail to aid the needy, we do not have God&#8217;s love- no matter what we may say.  It is deeds that count, not pious phrases and saintly speeches.  Regardless of what we do or say at 11:00 AM on Sunday morning, rich Christians who neglect the poor are not the people of God.</p>
<p>But still the question persists.  Does continuing sin mean that professing believers are really not Christians?  Obviously not.  The Christian knowws that sinful selfishness continues to plague even the most saintly.  Salvation is by grace alone, not works of righteousness.  We are members of the people of God not because of our own righteousness but solely because of Christ&#8217;s death for us.</p>
<p>That response is true- but inadequate by itself.  Matthew 25 and 1 John 3 surely mean more than that the people of God are disobedient (but still justified all the same) when they persistenly neglect the poor.  These verses pointedly assert that some people so disobey God that they are not his people at all in spite of their pious profession.  Neglect of the poor is one of the oft-repeated biblical signs of such disobedience.  Certainly none of us would claim that we fulfill Matthew 25 perfectly.  And we cling to the hope of forgiveness.  But there comes a point (and, thank God, he alonge knows where!) when neglect of the poor is not forgiven.  It is punished.  Eternally.  </p>
<p>Is it not possible that many rich &#8220;Christians&#8221; have reached that point?  North Americans and Europeans earn about seventy-five times as much as people in poor countries, but we give only a tiny fraction of our affluence to the church.  Most churches spend much of that pittance on themselves.  Can we claim we are obeying the biblical command to have a special concern for the poor?  Can we honestly say we are imitating God&#8217;s concern for the poor and oppressed?  If the Bible is true, can we seriously hope to experience eternal love rather than eternal separation from the God of the poor?</p>
]]></content:encoded>
				</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Kris Stubbe</title>
		<link>http://www.thestubbes.com/wordpress/2006/12/17/sake/#comment-116</link>
		<author>Kris Stubbe</author>
		<pubDate>Sun, 17 Dec 2006 18:11:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://www.thestubbes.com/wordpress/2006/12/17/sake/#comment-116</guid>
					<description>Exactly.

~~Goods works without Christ are just good works.~~
The road to hell is paved with good intentions.

~~"Christ" without good works is evidence of not knowing Christ.~~
1 John - "If we claim to have fellowship with him yet walk in darkness we lie and the TRUTH is NOT in us."  and when Christ said how can anyone claim to love me and yet hate his brother...

Salvation by grace alone is completely adequate but completely illogical to someone who measures their works and their lives against everyone elses.  Everything that we do, everything that we think we accomplish in this life is filthy rags...donkey poop and since we have such a difficult time comparing ourselves to Christ as being worthless we compare ourselves to eachother and try to justify our existance through religious superiority or acts of good will.  At the end of the day...

"we are his workmanship created for good works IN CHRIST he calls us to offer up our lives a living sacrifice..."

So we ask the question:  NOT how much of my life is a sacrifice compared to everyone else...what is sacrifice and what has Christ called me to do...that is different for everyone.  For some it's the poor, for others is the mentally disabled for others even still it's politics.  Instead of looking at what everyone else is doing for the poor look at what Christ is asking you to do for him and do THAT.  No one else is the standard, no one else is the example...what's to be followed is Christs call in your life.  Sacrifice isn't self fladulation...it's service.

My good works are between me and Jesus Christ and don't need to be offered up as evidence to the masses that I'm saved.  God's grace and the strength of Christ and his sacrifice on the cross are sufficient for me.

Good works and righteousness are something that we need to judge in ourselves.  Even though they are evidence of a close walk with Christ, they are not specific requirements for that walk, they are the results and come slower for some than they do for others.  It's the journey that gets us there...it's hard and it doesn't happen over night and it goes backwards and it needs the support of people we love and all those other things.  Christ's Church isn't there to hold us to the line...THERE IS NO LINE OTHER THAN PERFECTION.  The Church of Christ, the body of Christ is there to hold us standing while we walk in his grace and mercy, love us when we need love and pick us up when we fall.

But by the grace of God go I.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Exactly.</p>
<p>~~Goods works without Christ are just good works.~~<br />
The road to hell is paved with good intentions.</p>
<p>~~&#8221;Christ&#8221; without good works is evidence of not knowing Christ.~~<br />
1 John - &#8220;If we claim to have fellowship with him yet walk in darkness we lie and the TRUTH is NOT in us.&#8221;  and when Christ said how can anyone claim to love me and yet hate his brother&#8230;</p>
<p>Salvation by grace alone is completely adequate but completely illogical to someone who measures their works and their lives against everyone elses.  Everything that we do, everything that we think we accomplish in this life is filthy rags&#8230;donkey poop and since we have such a difficult time comparing ourselves to Christ as being worthless we compare ourselves to eachother and try to justify our existance through religious superiority or acts of good will.  At the end of the day&#8230;</p>
<p>&#8220;we are his workmanship created for good works IN CHRIST he calls us to offer up our lives a living sacrifice&#8230;&#8221;</p>
<p>So we ask the question:  NOT how much of my life is a sacrifice compared to everyone else&#8230;what is sacrifice and what has Christ called me to do&#8230;that is different for everyone.  For some it&#8217;s the poor, for others is the mentally disabled for others even still it&#8217;s politics.  Instead of looking at what everyone else is doing for the poor look at what Christ is asking you to do for him and do THAT.  No one else is the standard, no one else is the example&#8230;what&#8217;s to be followed is Christs call in your life.  Sacrifice isn&#8217;t self fladulation&#8230;it&#8217;s service.</p>
<p>My good works are between me and Jesus Christ and don&#8217;t need to be offered up as evidence to the masses that I&#8217;m saved.  God&#8217;s grace and the strength of Christ and his sacrifice on the cross are sufficient for me.</p>
<p>Good works and righteousness are something that we need to judge in ourselves.  Even though they are evidence of a close walk with Christ, they are not specific requirements for that walk, they are the results and come slower for some than they do for others.  It&#8217;s the journey that gets us there&#8230;it&#8217;s hard and it doesn&#8217;t happen over night and it goes backwards and it needs the support of people we love and all those other things.  Christ&#8217;s Church isn&#8217;t there to hold us to the line&#8230;THERE IS NO LINE OTHER THAN PERFECTION.  The Church of Christ, the body of Christ is there to hold us standing while we walk in his grace and mercy, love us when we need love and pick us up when we fall.</p>
<p>But by the grace of God go I.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
				</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Nate</title>
		<link>http://www.thestubbes.com/wordpress/2006/12/17/sake/#comment-117</link>
		<author>Nate</author>
		<pubDate>Tue, 19 Dec 2006 02:34:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://www.thestubbes.com/wordpress/2006/12/17/sake/#comment-117</guid>
					<description>Ya, that's true, Kris. Christ's gift of salvation is free and requires nothing else but to accept it. You're right, if there is evidence of that love for Him in things that people do for others, it's not so that others can see and say how good a person they are. It's a personal thing between the person and God and maybe it's a way of showing Him we're thankful.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Ya, that&#8217;s true, Kris. Christ&#8217;s gift of salvation is free and requires nothing else but to accept it. You&#8217;re right, if there is evidence of that love for Him in things that people do for others, it&#8217;s not so that others can see and say how good a person they are. It&#8217;s a personal thing between the person and God and maybe it&#8217;s a way of showing Him we&#8217;re thankful.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
				</item>
</channel>
</rss>
